tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post6889222562193318797..comments2023-06-06T07:02:56.002-07:00Comments on The Spark of Reason: Why do you eat grains?Davehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18290594860469294453noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-57407246727464815352011-02-28T00:39:22.483-08:002011-02-28T00:39:22.483-08:00Here's a thought from a non scientist...
As so...Here's a thought from a non scientist...<br />As soon as the lands rose up from the oceans and the volcanos quieted, the earth began to lose its balance of minerals back to the seas. Life on earth also began to be affected by such loss. Perhaps (as is often the case) animals were able to adapt to that loss more quickly evolutionarily speaking, than humans. <br /><br />Humans are lacking in the balance of the 92 odd minerals in ways which science does not yet nearly understand. (And 'balance' is the operative word). <br /><br />Over time and with prolonged lack, will not the body seek to redress this apparent 'starvation' by a 'hunger' for the quick fix and storability (in the body) of carbs/grains/sugars?<br />IMHO, we need to intervene at a much lower level, viz a complete mineral cocktail. Otherwise we just go round in circles trying to second guess the body in all its infinite complexity.<br /><br />We need to learn to take from the source and put back on the land. Some.. such as Rene Quinton in France at the turn of the century, understood this. I believe somewhere in Canada (and with a UK offshoot, and probably USA too) there is an agro company that also understands this. I'm sure in some of the 'unknown' corners of the world there are folk who have been doing this for generations in their own small way on their own small patches.<br /><br />Personally I know how I am affected by eating grains and A1 milk and also high salicylate foods. (I'm hoping this is temporary but am prepared for it not to be). No matter what the so called experts tell us we have to go with our guts.Sue Marriottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-7728613732688433932010-06-12T03:48:11.277-07:002010-06-12T03:48:11.277-07:00Dave
What ad hoc hypotheses?
I appreciate that y...Dave<br /><br />What ad hoc hypotheses?<br /><br />I appreciate that you have a busy life and don't have time to sit down and think about what I've said so you can see how it all fits together.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-90248316367452549142010-06-11T06:18:11.040-07:002010-06-11T06:18:11.040-07:00@Jane,
"As far as I have been able to find o...@Jane,<br /><br />"As far as I have been able to find out, phytate binds zinc, iron and calcium better than copper, manganese and magnesium, and therefore has the potential to correct all the imbalances caused by overconsumption of animal foods."<br /><br />You're weaving quite the web of ad hoc hypotheses. What you've put forth above would seem to contradict your stance that coeliac is the result of copper deficiency. If eating lots of grains corrected mineral balance as you claim, then more grains should improve coeliac, not less. And didn't you say that gut bacteria neutralized phytate? Or are you saying that one should only eat a lot of grains IF also eating a lot of animal-based foods?<br /><br />Is it your stance that "imbalances caused by overconsumption of animal foods" are intrinsic to consuming animal foods, or a result of how we raise and eat animals today? For instance, we feed cattle grain, and eat only the muscle meat, which has a relative paucity of micronutrients compared to organ meats. Because it would seem strange if you are claiming that humans somehow evolved such that a major component of their diet was less than optimal.<br /><br />And again, what grain-based foods do not have a large effect on blood glucose and insulin (compared to whole foods like steak and veggies)?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290594860469294453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-81296782308214090662010-06-10T05:18:13.010-07:002010-06-10T05:18:13.010-07:00Dave
'I would suggest that the fast track to ...Dave<br /><br />'I would suggest that the fast track to copper deficiency is getting a large proportion of calories from grains. And for all minerals under discussion, I've yet to see any real evidence that phytates don't interfere with mineral bioavailability.'<br /><br />Look up 'Enhancement of Cu bioavailability in the rat by phytic acid'. The authors suggest phytate improves copper availability by binding zinc, which would otherwise inhibit copper absorption.<br /><br />In fact Klevay suggested years ago that the problem in heart disease was a high zinc-copper ratio, and that phytate reduces it. <br /><br />As far as I have been able to find out, phytate binds zinc, iron and calcium better than copper, manganese and magnesium, and therefore has the potential to correct all the imbalances caused by overconsumption of animal foods.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-507404932133714822010-06-08T06:46:29.150-07:002010-06-08T06:46:29.150-07:00Lets look at a few other lists for mineral density...Lets look at a few other lists for mineral density.<br /><br />Copper per 100 g serving:<br /><a href="http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000125000000000000000-w.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000125000000000000000-w.html</a><br /><br />Not many changes in this case. The next two are magnesium per 200 kcal serving and 100 g serving:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000120000000000000000.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000120000000000000000.html</a><br /><a href="http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000120000000000000000-w.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000120000000000000000-w.html</a><br /><br />Some differences here, because some of the foods with high magnesium/kcal density are of low caloric density. For instance, you'd need to eat more than a kilogram of raw chard to get 200 kcal. Many examples here of seeds and nuts that would have been on the paleolithic menu. Grain brans are notably high, but of course you'd need the technology to separate the bran, and I'd further question bioavailability. I'd love to see some controlled studies where they feed subjects rice bran, and see how much magnesium comes out the back end. It's unfortunate that we don't have some solid info on magnesium in pastured animals vs. grain fed, though what results I've seen indicate that it is higher (as you'd expect for animals eating leaves instead of grains).<br /><br />Here's manganese by 200 kcal/100 g serving:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000126000000000000000.html" rel="nofollow">v</a><br /><a href="http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000126000000000000000-w.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000126000000000000000-w.html</a><br /><br />This is really the one micronutrient where whole grains make much of a showing. We also have lots of seeds and nuts again, also shellfish and some fruits (like wild blueberries).<br /><br />So once again we return to my original question: grains are not impressive in terms of micronutrient density (excepting manganese), particularly if you take extensive processing and refinement out of the equation. So what is the biological imperative to eat them? We find in the lists above plenty of alternative foods which are both generally more dense in micronutrients as well as easier to harvest and make edible with limited technology.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290594860469294453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-91415401475747236732010-06-08T06:45:12.080-07:002010-06-08T06:45:12.080-07:00Hi Jane.
I should have said "storing more fa...Hi Jane.<br /><br />I should have said "storing more fat" rather than making more fat. Storage of fat requires glucose as a source of glycerol-3-phosphate. And I agree with your comments on deranged insulin metabolism. A great way to drive said derangement is by spiking blood glucose with refined carbohydrates, like nearly all grain-based foods. Do you have any examples of grain-based foods for which the blood sugar and insulin responses are on a par with whole food sources of carbohydrate?<br /><br />"Grain proteins are only toxic if they aren't accompanied by the vitamins and minerals needed for proper functioning of the gut and the immune system. Gut cells and immune cells both use glutamine as an energy source, and much of it is made by the enzyme glutamine synthetase. This enzyme is activated by magnesium and manganese."<br /><br />Interesting hypothesis, but your case is circumstantial. Do you have specific evidence relating glutamine metabolism and lectin detoxification? It's a bit academic, I know, since we don't really have any direct evidence that grain lectins play a causal role in disease.<br /><br />"Celiac patients have holes in their gut basement membrane, and this might be the main route through which gluten gets inside. Blame copper deficiency, not the gluten"<br /><br />Here is a list of foods ranked by copper content per 200 kcal serving:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000125000000000000000.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000125000000000000000.html</a><br /><br />Note that grains first appear quite far down the list. At the top: mollusks and organ meats. Considerable evidence exists and continues to mount that these were staples in early human diets, not grains. I would suggest that the fast track to copper deficiency is getting a large proportion of calories from grains. And for all minerals under discussion, I've yet to see any real evidence that phytates don't interfere with mineral bioavailability.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290594860469294453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-83879715659724823592010-06-07T06:03:21.478-07:002010-06-07T06:03:21.478-07:00Hi Dave
'If they're making more fat, it m...Hi Dave<br /><br />'If they're making more fat, it means they're also eating more glucose.' Actually it means their insulin metabolism is deranged. Insulin is supposed to DECREASE fatty acid synthesis in the short term. Here's a quote from a paper entitled 'Insulin acutely decreases hepatic fatty acid synthase activity': <br /><br />'Chronically elevated levels of insulin increase the levels in liver of lipogenic enzymes .. Growing evidence supports a central role for de novo synthesis of fatty acids (FA) and increased hepatic VLDL-triglyceride output in the pathogenesis of obesity and insulin resistance.'<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16054098<br /><br />You need periodic absence of insulin for it to work properly. Insulin secretion is supposed to be pulsatile. Oscillations of insulin secretion depend on oscillations in mitochondrial ATP synthesis, and therefore on magnesium. Many studies have shown an inverse relation between serum magnesium and insulin resistance.<br /><br />'The relevant candidate grain toxins are proteins that make it through the gut into the blood intact.'<br /><br />Many proteins get through the gut wall intact, it's part of 'oral tolerance' in which the immune system is instructed not to react to them. <br /><br />Grain proteins are only toxic if they aren't accompanied by the vitamins and minerals needed for proper functioning of the gut and the immune system. Gut cells and immune cells both use glutamine as an energy source, and much of it is made by the enzyme glutamine synthetase. This enzyme is activated by magnesium and manganese. <br /><br />Gut cells sit on a basement membrane which has to be repaired all the time, just like the basement membrane of blood vessels has to be repaired all the time. Repair needs the copper enzyme lysyl oxidase, which is why copper-deficient animals get ruptured blood vessels. <br /><br />Celiac patients have holes in their gut basement membrane, and this might be the main route through which gluten gets inside. Blame copper deficiency, not the gluten.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-56846384378417835782010-06-05T07:37:44.889-07:002010-06-05T07:37:44.889-07:00That last sentence should read "neutralizes&q...That last sentence should read "neutralizes" :-)Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290594860469294453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-28289553159634638032010-06-05T07:37:12.664-07:002010-06-05T07:37:12.664-07:00Hi Jane.
Your point about the study subjects bein...Hi Jane.<br /><br />Your point about the study subjects being obese is a good one. I've contacted Dr. Ludwig to see if he knows of similar results in non-obese subjects.<br /><br />"This means their mitochondria won't be working properly, which indeed is why they are obese. They are making more fat than their mitochondria can burn."<br /><br />Maybe you could explain this in more detail. If they're making more fat, it means they're also eating more glucose. In a properly functioning metabolism, energy intake and expenditure should be balanced. If fat starts stacking up someplace, appetite should be down-regulated. If this does not occur, something else is broken. The sort of hormonal excursions seen in the Ludwig paper are one possible pathway (there are others, but I suspect this one is common in Western society).<br /><br />I absolutely agree that magnesium is critical for mitochondrial function. But that by itself doesn't imply that magnesium deficiency = obesity, since you still need to explain why other parts of the energy regulation system are not compensating. Indeed, I would expect that magnesium deficiency by itself would result in reduced energy (lethargy) output AND reduced appetite. <br /><br />I agree with Stephan's comments on glycemic index. When I say "high glycemic", I'm speaking of effect on blood glucose. Ludwig's use of glycemic index is probably reasonable, since the experimental design effectively translates to glycemic load. And of course he was measuring blood glucose directly. <br /><br />"This is why I suggested you should read The Wheel Of Health. If you want to know whether wheat really does these things, you have to study people who eat a lot of wheat. The Hunza ate a lot of (unrefined) wheat and were spectacularly healthy."<br /><br />Studying people who eat wheat is a starting point, but ultimately a "black box" approach. It's nearly impossible to factor in all of the variables in lifestyle in metabolism by starting with a particular food in free-living individuals and observing health endpoints. The best you can do is use this as a starting point for testing more detailed metabolic hypotheses. <br /><br />There is a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that wheat *could* have negative effects on health. For instance, wheat germ agglutinin (WGA) binds to a broad range of hormone receptors. It's so good at this that it is a principle tool used in studying said receptors. WGA binds to and sticks to insulin receptors, which has the *potential* to contribute to metabolic derangement. Nobody has shown that this actually occurs in free-living individuals, but it is at least consistent with what is known at the molecular and cellular level. What I'm trying to elicit from you is similar evidence to the contrary. If "Wheel of Health" goes into that level of detail, I'll read it. If it's all associative, e.g. "These people eat this magic food and they're healthier than you", then I'll pass.<br /><br />What kinds of grain to the Hunza eat? I was able to find barley, but nothing specific about the wheat strain. And what proportion is grain in their diet? Apparently they also eat a lot of apricots, apricot seed oil, etc. And in what little poking around I did on the internet, the gushing over the "spectacular health" of the Hunza seemed more hyperbolic than based on anything quantifiable. For instance, one site discussed how old men would jump in freezing water. I've seen plenty of old guys with giant beer guts do this as well - it doesn't mean they're "spectacularly healthy".<br /><br />The info on tuberose.com is interesting, though it seems to be awfully unequivocal in its statements. And if I'm not mistaken, the discussion focuses on fat-soluble toxins. The relevant candidate grain toxins are proteins that make it through the gut into the blood intact. Do you have specific information that the liver neutalizes grain lectins?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290594860469294453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-23430560090884830472010-06-04T02:45:45.859-07:002010-06-04T02:45:45.859-07:00Hi Dave
Thanks for the paper. It's very diff...Hi Dave<br /><br />Thanks for the paper. It's very difficult to draw conclusions from it because the subjects were obese, and therefore had micronutrient deficiencies. Several studies have shown that obese people have a low magnesium intake. This means their mitochondria won't be working properly, which indeed is why they are obese. They are making more fat than their mitochondria can burn. <br /><br />Mitochondria are critically dependent on magnesium. The substrate for ATP synthase isn't ADP, it's magnesium-ADP, and the product is magnesium-ATP. No magnesium, no energy.<br /><br />These obese subjects won't be able to regulate their blood sugar properly, because their pancreas and liver aren't working optimally. Giving them high versus low glycemic load meals serves only to make the authors think glycemic load is important when it isn't. <br /><br />Stephan has two excellent posts on glycemic index:<br />http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/03/its-time-to-let-go-of-glycemic-index.html<br />and<br />http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/03/more-thoughts-on-glycemic-index.html<br /><br />My only disagreement with these posts is this: 'I believe wheat is a uniquely unhealthy food, that promotes inflammation and general metabolic havoc over a long period of time.'<br /><br />This is why I suggested you should read The Wheel Of Health. If you want to know whether wheat really does these things, you have to study people who eat a lot of wheat. The Hunza ate a lot of (unrefined) wheat and were spectacularly healthy. <br /><br />'..could you fill in some of the metabolic details connecting the vitamins/minerals and relevant enzymes, how they work to deactivate toxins, etc?'<br /><br />Here is a good discussion of liver detoxification and the vitamins and minerals it needs:<br />http://tuberose.com/Liver_Detoxification.htmlJanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-7263472107271194902010-06-02T08:59:24.560-07:002010-06-02T08:59:24.560-07:00Hi Jane.
I'm familiar with the basic hypothes...Hi Jane.<br /><br />I'm familiar with the basic hypotheses of "The Saccharine Disease", and agree that part of the problem with refined carbohydrates is removal of micronutrients. But increased glycemic load is also a potential issue, driving a hormonal response that (at least on a repeated basis) is closer to the stress response as opposed to a "normal" food response, see e.g. Ludwig's 1999 paper in Pediatrics:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.avantinutritionals.com/GI%201-day%20Study%20-%20Ludwig.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.avantinutritionals.com/GI%201-day%20Study%20-%20Ludwig.pdf</a><br /><br />Check out Figure 1, particularly the plasma glucose, epinephrine, and HGH profiles for the high-glycemic meal.<br /><br />"Forget about the defences of grains. Your body can cope with them. IF it has enough vitamins and minerals to activate the enzymes involved."<br /><br />That's a pretty broad statement - could you fill in some of the metabolic details connecting the vitamins/minerals and relevant enzymes, how the work to deactivate toxins, etc? "The Wheel of Health" sounds interesting, but I'm only going to take the time to read it if it goes into this level of detail. If it's all associative evidence, I'm not too interested, and suspect you could probably sum it up in a paragraph.<br /><br />Monocultures and population growth are direct results of adopting large-scale agriculture, and form a feedback loop that is hard to break (monocultures allow you to, at least temporarily, get higher yield per acre, leading to more people, which drives larger monocultures, etc.) It's a classic example of how the strong drive for reproductive fitness can lead to solutions which are optimal in the short-term, but disastrous over the long.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290594860469294453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-58020123187134796892010-05-30T08:33:07.140-07:002010-05-30T08:33:07.140-07:00Dave
Forget about the defences of grains. Your b...Dave<br /><br />Forget about the defences of grains. Your body can cope with them. IF it has enough vitamins and minerals to activate the enzymes involved. Antinutrients are only toxic to people who eat refined carbohydrate.<br /><br />Yes, the start of agriculture was accompanied by nutritional problems which have been blamed on grains. Other things happened too, like monoculture and population growth. If you read The Wheel Of Health (about the Hunza) you will see how unlikely it is that these problems were caused by eating grains.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-49329644003892909572010-05-30T07:54:03.024-07:002010-05-30T07:54:03.024-07:00Dave
The term 'refined carbohydrate' refe...Dave<br /><br />The term 'refined carbohydrate' refers either to white sugar, or to grain products that have had the germ and bran removed (white flour, white rice etc). Most of the manganese is in the germ and bran. <br /><br />You should read The Saccharine Disease and/or The Wheel Of Health to get an idea of what refined carbohydrate does to you. Both of them are available online. You will be pretty shocked.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-85611018440783074232010-05-28T07:48:59.989-07:002010-05-28T07:48:59.989-07:00@Jane,
Sorry to have been absent, finally got a l...@Jane,<br /><br />Sorry to have been absent, finally got a little breathing room...<br /><br />Your info on manganese is pretty interesting, almost sounds like a "forgotten nutrient" to some extent. Hopefully I can get some time to root around through the references you posted.<br /><br />In general, there seems to be a fairly strong anti-correlation between the degree of refinement of food, and the density of micronutrients. It would be interesting to dig into the causes for this, because it doesn't necessarily HAVE to be this way. Minerals, for example, aren't destroyed by processing, though the relevant biological components might be removed, or chemical alteration may make them less bio-available. It makes me wonder: if grains are high in manganese, and the SAD contains such a high fraction of grain-based foods, what is the origin of manganese deficiency? Is it over-processing? And do you have any evidence that people eating "whole grains" have higher manganese levels and lower rates of (hypothetically) associated diseases?<br /><br />Re: what whole grain foods are not refined carbohydrate? AFAIK, many grains are not edible raw. Wheat, for instance, will give you quite the stomach-ache (at least it won't kill you outright, like raw kidney beans). This is a great example of how plants (lacking ability to escape or fight) use "chemical warfare". Fruiting plants have evolved to provide an attractive source of nutrition (fruit) to encourage animals to carry away the seeds - indeed, the seeds can survive the digestive tracts. An annual grass, however, packs the seed itself full of nutrition. There is no reproductive benefit to the grass if those seeds are eaten, so from an evolutionary standpoint, it behooves the grass to evolve chemical defenses to discourage predation. Here's a news story with a great example (where the evolution has been helped along by us):<br /><br /><a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100209183129.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100209183129.htm</a><br /><br />We clever monkeys have figured out how to circumvent at least some of these defenses by "processing" or pre-digesting grains: separating certain components (e.g. removal of the germ takes away some lectins like wheat-germ agglutinin), grinding, fermenting, cooking, etc. All of these processes also affect the availability of nutrients. Many of them free up starch from fiber so that it is more easily assimilated by humans, i.e. raises the glycemic index. Add to this that modern wheat has traded in protein content (40% to 12%) for carbohydrate content, and we can see that modern grain foods certainly have the potential to be very high-glycemic.<br /><br />So if I'm going to trade in my steak for grains, what grain foods should I be eating that are not highly refined and high glycemic? And while we're on the topic, how should I avoid issues associated with the various chemical defenses of grains? The archeological evidence I'm aware of (admittedly superficial) indicates that all human populations show a decrease in health markers when transitioning from a hunter-gatherer to an agricultural lifestyle. Do you know of any evidence indicating the opposite?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290594860469294453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-86401630446004884462010-05-26T05:47:00.268-07:002010-05-26T05:47:00.268-07:00Dave
I just found something interesting. A pape...Dave <br /><br />I just found something interesting. A paper entitled 'Hypothalamic mTOR signaling regulates food intake'<br />http://scienceonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/312/5775/927<br /><br /><br />Something else interesting: 'ATM, an unexpected new target in metabolic syndrome'<br />http://www.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/119389204/HTMLSTART<br /><br />This is 'unexpected' because ATM is a cell cycle checkpoint enzyme. What does that have to do with metabolic syndrome? A lot, it seems.<br /><br />Here's the punch line: ATM has a strict manganese requirement like mTOR. '..this property of extreme Mn2+ dependence is shared with mTOR..'<br />http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/15/17/2177.fullJanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-8744294298287540952010-05-24T08:35:28.067-07:002010-05-24T08:35:28.067-07:00Hi. Had a busy weekend with the kids. Spent Friday...Hi. Had a busy weekend with the kids. Spent Friday night on a sleep-over aboard the USS Hornet with my son (not much "sleep", unfortunately) and Saturday recovering. Sunday was my daughter's birthday party.<br /><br />Jane - thanks for all the info you've posted. I haven't had a chance to look in any detail, will respond when/if I have something intelligent to add.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290594860469294453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-11052525305792070602010-05-24T04:09:47.102-07:002010-05-24T04:09:47.102-07:00David
Hi, glad you're enjoying this conversat...David<br /><br />Hi, glad you're enjoying this conversation. No, I don't write a blog of my own. I am dependent on the kindness of people like Dave.<br /><br />Dave<br /><br />Where are you? Would you like references to the things I mentioned about Abeta and RAGE? Here are two of them. <br /><br />Manganese dependence of mTOR (see Fig 2A):<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC452270/pdf/emboj00019-0136.pdf<br /><br />Manganese dependence of VPS34 (Fig 3A):<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC394401/pdf/emboj00038-0061.pdf<br /><br />You might ask, if all this is so well established, why don't Alzheimer researchers talk about it? Very good question. The problem is that biochemists don't think enzyme activation by manganese is physiological. Cells don't have enough manganese.<br /><br />But actually cells DO have enough manganese. It's just that it's sequestered in membrane-bound compartments. We don't know yet for sure whether it gets released in response to relevant signals, like calcium and magnesium do, but many observations are consistent with this idea. It would mean that locally, the concentration could be very high, high enough to satisfy the biochemists.<br /><br />So you see, the link between manganese deficiency and Alzheimer's, and all other degenerative diseases for that matter, is up for grabs. And it isn't just degenerative disease. You will be interested to hear that HIV replication is promoted by iron, and inhibited by manganese. The epidemic of AIDS in the third world might conceivably have something to do with the practice of giving pregnant women and children iron supplements.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-86891771434183140832010-05-23T03:22:43.718-07:002010-05-23T03:22:43.718-07:00Dave
I don't see my post from yesterday. I h...Dave<br /><br />I don't see my post from yesterday. I had problems posting it. Did you get it?<br /><br />BTW, you asked<br />'Still waiting to hear about some whole-grain foods that are not refined carbohydrate.' I didn't answer because I didn't understand. What do you mean?Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-72364893344274863882010-05-22T06:45:34.306-07:002010-05-22T06:45:34.306-07:00Dave
Thanks for your piece on Abeta and RAGE. It...Dave<br /><br />Thanks for your piece on Abeta and RAGE. It's very interesting, because RAGE has been found to affect the switch between protein synthesis and degradation. Here's a paper about it:<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19834494<br /><br />The abstract says this:<br /><br />'..RAGE-sustained autophagy is associated with decreased phosphorylation of mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) and increased Beclin-1/VPS34 autopagosome formation. ..' <br /><br />You will be interested to hear that both mTOR and VPS34 have an absolute requirement for manganese. In other words, Abeta and RAGE act as a manganese-dependent switch between protein synthesis and degradation.<br /><br />RAGE also activates NF-kappaB, which protects mitochondria by inducing manganese-dependent SOD. MnSOD in turn induces many other protective genes, including several involved in autophagy. <br /><br />Alzheimer's is characterised by failure of autophagy, which is supposed to munch up the damaged proteins.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-79208713034629483862010-05-21T15:24:08.241-07:002010-05-21T15:24:08.241-07:00Just discovered this blog today. I am LOVING this ...Just discovered this blog today. I am LOVING this conversation and hope that you two continue. <br /><br />Jane: Do you keep a blog of your own?Another Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-47137833043021383452010-05-21T07:30:27.883-07:002010-05-21T07:30:27.883-07:00@Jane,
"There is a problem here. The human g...@Jane,<br /><br />"There is a problem here. The human gut does not take kindly to a high-protein diet. Gut bacteria like an acid environment, and protein makes the colon alkaline. This means minerals don't get absorbed properly."<br /><br />The relative populations of gut bacteria are dependent on diet. If you move away from a carbohydrate-based diet, the acid-loving bacteria are presumably crowded out by those favoring a more neutral pH. Your comment about "high-protein diet" also brings forth a common misunderstanding. Hunter-gatherers generally did not eat "high protein". Rather the protein content of diets is remarkably constant across cultures. The major source of energy for hunters would have been fat.<br /><br />I suppose technically you've put forth a "biochemical hypothesis". I'm asking for a few more details linking your hypothetical cause to the disease endpoint, a trip down well-understood metabolic pathways and associated chemistry. The "well-understood" is key, as positing other hypothetical processes does not add any evidential weight (it actually detracts, since your hypothesis space is getting larger). Here's an example I just posted (and admittedly not a great one, but at least some details on how cause is connected to effect):<br /><a href="http://sparkofreason.blogspot.com/2010/05/alzheimers-and-rage.html" rel="nofollow">http://sparkofreason.blogspot.com/2010/05/alzheimers-and-rage.html</a><br /><br />Still waiting to hear about some whole-grain foods that are not refined carbohydrate.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290594860469294453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-24646243050966306042010-05-21T02:45:46.268-07:002010-05-21T02:45:46.268-07:00Dave
'I think you're mixing up correlati...Dave<br /><br /><br />'I think you're mixing up correlation and causation. Alzheimer's brains may be high/low in many things compared to "normal" brains. But you need a biochemical hypothesis connecting iron/zinc overload with the disease outcome.'<br /><br />I have given you a biochemical hypothesis. Read what I wrote. I can give you as much detail as you like. Ask the questions and I will answer them.<br /><br />'And what if you're eating meat WITHOUT refined carbohydrates, which seems closer to the evolutionary diet of humans?'<br /><br />There is a problem here. The human gut does not take kindly to a high-protein diet. Gut bacteria like an acid environment, and protein makes the colon alkaline. This means minerals don't get absorbed properly.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-19489960448973597022010-05-20T07:15:31.403-07:002010-05-20T07:15:31.403-07:00@Jane
I think you're mixing up correlation an...@Jane<br /><br />I think you're mixing up correlation and causation. Alzheimer's brains may be high/low in many things compared to "normal" brains. But you need a biochemical hypothesis connecting iron/zinc overload with the disease outcome. Otherwise you can never tell if it's root cause, a side-effect of some other disease process, or just irrelevant.<br /><br />And it brings me back to my previous point: if grains are higher manganese, and we're feeding those grains to our meat animals, then why is the meat deficient? The answer may be that we're eating the wrong parts of the animal - hunter-gatherers tended to eschew the muscle for organ meats whenever possible.<br /><br />And what if you're eating meat WITHOUT refined carbohydrates, which seems closer to the evolutionary diet of humans?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290594860469294453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-60863591253411984532010-05-20T02:27:08.660-07:002010-05-20T02:27:08.660-07:00Dave
You think we should be eating cows, do you? ...Dave<br /><br />You think we should be eating cows, do you? Consider the following.<br /><br />1. Alzheimer brains have iron and zinc overload, which correlates with pathology. <br /><br />2. Meat is very high in highly-available iron and zinc.<br /><br />Need I say more? <br /><br />Iron overload has been found in many diseases, correlating with pathology. It means manganese deficiency, because only manganese can protect mitochondria from the free radicals produced by excess iron. <br /><br />Animal products are low in manganese, and refined carbohydrate has had most (grains) or all (sugar) of its manganese removed.<br /><br />Zinc overload usually means copper deficiency, and much evidence suggests an important role for copper deficiency in Alzheimer's. Utilisation of copper needs manganese, so manganese deficiency might be the primary problem.<br /><br />Milk is a much better food for humans than meat, but nowadays it's very low in copper. This may be because the cows are fed too much zinc. Nutritionists believe zinc deficiency is common and copper deficiency is rare. But the two top copper researchers, Klevay and Sorenson, both say MOST OF US have copper deficiency. What is often diagnosed as zinc deficiency is actually multiple micronutrient deficiency.<br /><br />So now you can see why a diet of meat and refined carbohydrate is pretty much guaranteed to give you Alzheimer's. I don't think it helps if the meat is grass-fed, because the basic problem is that meat-derived iron is absorbed without feedback inhibition, and iron doesn't really get excreted. You just accumulate it. <br /><br />Nutritionists think this is perfectly OK, and they will even give you iron supplements if your 'iron stores' are low. In fact, the iron stores have been shown to be toxic, and we probably shouldn't have any at all.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7721098568390636553.post-47796700291716884822010-05-19T07:17:32.827-07:002010-05-19T07:17:32.827-07:00@Jane
What "whole grain foods" are not ...@Jane<br /><br />What "whole grain foods" are not refined carbohydrates?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290594860469294453noreply@blogger.com